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 Posted: Feb 29, 2012 07:56AM
 Edited:  Feb 29, 2012 08:28AM
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US
Quote:
Originally Posted by CooperTune

IB65 you are over thinking this. Put the hub together with spacer, mount you dial gauge duct tape to upper arm if need be  place indicator on end of shaft push in set zero pull out that's your number. Add .001 and remove that amount from current spacer. OK make a spacer, I have never hardened any. I just drop by local machine shop ( very large NASA contractor ) and ask to look in their scrap. With dial caliper I find a length of tube (stainless is kind of soft) a good grade of steel works fine. Take it to chop saw and wack a foot off and I'm on my way.

Steve

Thanks for the clarification!  I do overthink things sometimes

The magic number is .008" as my play was .007" (end float + .001), so machining a spacer that is .008" thinner than my current spacer.  Sound right?

Going to machine a spacer today and might harden it since I can, and it takes an extra 5 minutes.  

I've never bothered setting up hubs this way (the right way) before.  Now I know why I've been doing this job every few years, because relying on proper spacer thickness out of the box is probably not a good bet to take.

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

 Posted: Feb 29, 2012 06:32AM
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IB65 you are over thinking this. Put the hub together with spacer, mount you dial gauge duct tape to upper arm if need be  place indicator on end of shaft push in set zero pull out that's your number. Add .001 and remove that amount from current spacer. OK make a spacer, I have never hardened any. I just drop by local machine shop ( very large NASA contractor ) and ask to look in their scrap. With dial caliper I find a length of tube (stainless is kind of soft) a good grade of steel works fine. Take it to chop saw and wack a foot off and I'm on my way.

Steve

 Posted: Feb 29, 2012 02:29AM
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Standard Timken spacers are not hard, I can machine them easily with HSS tool in my bench lathe.
I have also made some from SAE4140.

Kevin G

1360 power- Morris 1300 auto block, S crank & rods, Russell Engineering RE282 sprint cam, over 125HP at crank, 86.6HP at the wheels @7000+.

 Posted: Feb 29, 2012 12:41AM
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US

The spacer is definitely too thick.  Hand tightening without it, the hub has no play.  I tried the indicator trick, but had no luck keeping the magnetic base from moving and losing my reading when I removed the drive flange to put the spacer back in. The tiny machined surface where the steering arm attaches was too small for my magnetic base, and the ball joint is also in the way.  There is also the problem of the cv joint being able to move in and out with too thick a spacer (this is what causes the play).  The spacer prevents both bearings from seating into the races, so pulling outward would seat the inner bearing and pushing inward would seat the outer bearing.  You would somehow need to pull firmly in the same direction on the drive flange for both readings (with and without the spacer) to make sure you were actually measuring the endfloat correctly.  I wish there was an easier way to take this measurement.  I'm actually considering putting some JB Weld putty coated in grease in between the bearings without the spacer, hand tightening the crown nut to seat the bearings in the races and then removing the putty and letting it harden up, then measure from flat to flat on the putty and adding .001" to get my spacer thickness.

Once I make a few spacers, I'm going to heat them and treat with hardening compound.

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

 Posted: Feb 28, 2012 01:59PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isleblue65

I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to machine some stainless spacers and case harden them, or at least find out what the end float is and machine the correct spacer thickness for what you have.

Kevin, I'm unclear on where you touch off your dial indicator when checking the endfloat.  If you have everything assembled, even with the outer seal removed, the drive flange, cone washer and nut would prevent you from touching off the outer bearing.  If you touch off the face of the drive flange, how do you capture the in and out play? Mine noticably rocks top to bottom and side to side, but translating that to how much spacer material needs to be removed is not clear to me.

Craig,
I position the dial gauge horizontal, on the outer end face of the CV.
The magnetic base clings to the machined top of the swivel hub, where the steering arm attaches.

Kevin G

1360 power- Morris 1300 auto block, S crank & rods, Russell Engineering RE282 sprint cam, over 125HP at crank, 86.6HP at the wheels @7000+.

 Posted: Feb 28, 2012 05:54AM
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I have made up a jig out of 1/2" steel plate. It allows me to mount the hub in my milling machine vise. This gives me plenty of room to place my magnetic dial gauge. I also don't bother with the axle or disc. I use an outer CV that had to be cut off a good Cooper S axle. I have also made a puller to remove axles from CVs. When it does not pull the axle right out I wiz wheel the bell off the CV and press the axle out. Axles are worth more to me than knocking CVs. I set up the hub the correct bearings, spacer, drive flange torque it up with impact and measure float as cloe to the center as possible. With the guts missing from the CV the back side is best for this. It takes a little time but worth it on every job. I recently did 5 sets of Cooper S hubs in a batch. Once the bearings and seats are correct I mask that area build the ball joints and bag the assemblies. I find that if I lap the new ball pins they are less likely to loosen up after a few miles. You must insure that there are at least two flats 180 degrees apart on the ball to allow grease to get out. I place the ball pin rubbers in place then slide a short section of 5/8 heater hose over the pin followed by tyhe loc washer and nut then I hit with grease gun to insure no dry joints make it on the car.

Most likely more info than you wanted. I feel blessed to be allowed to live just above the poverty level doing what I love every day.

Steve

 Posted: Feb 28, 2012 04:49AM
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US

I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to machine some stainless spacers and case harden them, or at least find out what the end float is and machine the correct spacer thickness for what you have.

Kevin, I'm unclear on where you touch off your dial indicator when checking the endfloat.  If you have everything assembled, even with the outer seal removed, the drive flange, cone washer and nut would prevent you from touching off the outer bearing.  If you touch off the face of the drive flange, how do you capture the in and out play? Mine noticably rocks top to bottom and side to side, but translating that to how much spacer material needs to be removed is not clear to me.

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 06:44PM
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I have found some of the spacers in the noname kits (blue box) are incorrect.
In Timken kits they are OK.

If I find it is loose on assembly (without outer seal fitted) I torque it up to 150lb/ft, then use a dial gauge to determine the endfloat.
I then remove the spacer, surface grind (endfloat +.001") off it and reassemble to check. The objective is to get .001-.002" preload.

 

Kevin G

1360 power- Morris 1300 auto block, S crank & rods, Russell Engineering RE282 sprint cam, over 125HP at crank, 86.6HP at the wheels @7000+.

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 03:35PM
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I normall assemble the hub dry (no grease) and torque up. Then check for play/ and use a in-lb torque wrench to check my bearing preload usually looking for 15-20 in-lbs. of rolling resistance. This method has worked great for me as the vtec cars will chew up the drive flange in as few as 2000 miles of they are not setup correctly. If the bearing are 2 tight I hone the back of one of the races/ change spacer if I have one. I would not make a new spacer as the ones that come in the kit are hardened to prevent mushrooming the ends when torqued up.

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 02:38PM
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As we all know some of this stuff is not new. Failure to replace bearings when needed? I just run into this problem now and then. I see hubs with center punch marks behind the outer races. The hub bore depends on the race to round it up, she's not real stable. If you have access to a lathe and can find a tube right inside and outside dia. wack some out. If you took trig, with a yard stick and dial indicator you can figure how much you need. I never throw anything away so I have a drawer of spacers and I'm always surprised how many different thickness ones I have.

I would not torque the assembly without the spacer you will mess something up. It's nothing more than a wedge and that fine thread can put a lot of pressure on things. I'd bet with an impact you could split a race. I think you have it going now.

Steve 

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 01:34PM
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I had this issue on one side a few years ago. My hubs were not that old at the time as they had both been replaced.  The movement was perhaps minor, but it was different from one side to the other. I like Steve's method for checking. I have one replacement hub and I will see whether that solves the issue when the Traveller gets back on the road.

Terry

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 01:09PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascherk

If the new CV has a single hole in the threaded area, the torque should be 188-200 lb-ft. If it has 2 holes then the torque should be 150 lb-ft. If you haven't had the hub nut tightened close to these specs then you may not have the assembly properly seated. All of the other suggestions are possibilities but this is usually the starting point. It is often helpful to initially tighten the assembly with a heavy flat washer instead of the tapered washer to make sure everything pulls together and the tapered washer is canted. The flat washer is then replaced with the tapered washer.

Kelley

The CV in question has the 2 holes (the left side is the older single hole).  I'll try the flat washer method as you suggest. 

Thanks,

Craig

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 09:38AM
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If the new CV has a single hole in the threaded area, the torque should be 188-200 lb-ft. If it has 2 holes then the torque should be 150 lb-ft. If you haven't had the hub nut tightened close to these specs then you may not have the assembly properly seated. All of the other suggestions are possibilities but this is usually the starting point. It is often helpful to initially tighten the assembly with a heavy flat washer instead of the tapered washer to make sure everything pulls together and the tapered washer is canted. The flat washer is then replaced with the tapered washer.

Kelley

"If you can afford the car, you can afford the manual..."

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 07:52AM
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I have 7.5" Cooper S discs, and I was reading the wrong torque spec out of my Haynes manual.  However, the axle nut was as far as it would go, and even if I was 20 or 30 lf lbs short after my last much higher torque, the wobble is not going to go away.

Coopertune, looking at a breakaway diagram of the front axle assy, I realized that the spacer is probably the problem.  Thanks for bringing that up.  Would the bearings bind if that spacer was not in there?  The most likely cause of the races being too close together would be a race that spun? If the bearing is held out by the spacer, how would the race spin?

So I can keep the spacer that's in there intact, I think I'll machine a series of spacers from .005 to .050 thinner than what I have and try them out, or I'll just wait for the new hub and see how it fits.   

I'm on the right track I think.

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 06:49AM
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I had a problem with the same discription as you, and also replaced my outer CV joint/bearings/drive flange before discovering that the driveshaft itself was slightly bent.

I was amazed that it was bent, but a new driveshaft completely solved my slight wobble.

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 05:37AM
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US

I think we were talking about this on another thread recently. I drop info on unrelated threads often just part of being me. Unlike Alex I'm going to assume you are working with disc brakes. You have done the hard part by detecting play in the bearings. I would suggest remove the caliper make a hook out of clothes hanger wire and and secure it out of the way. Remove the nut and taper washer pull off the disc and drive flange. Remove the outer seal and bearing. Slip the spacer out. Mike it for thickness. Write that number down. Now put the bearing (less spacer) disc and drive back in place. Now the taper washer and nut. Tighten nut as tight as you can with fingers. Maybe a 1/8 turn with a wrench. Check for wobble. If the wobble is gone your spacer is to thick. The normal cause is wear of the outer races in the hub. If that is the case the outer race should have spun in the hub freely after pressing in place. Sometimes you get a hub that was just not machined correctly. If you have the old parts from replacing the bearings measure one of those spacers. If a few mil. thinner give that a try. If you have no other spacers take a pc. of glass glue several different grit sand papers to it and start sanding. Use mike to insure parallel and take a couple mil. each try. You will get a feel as it gets closer. If you have a dial indicator you can check the last little bit. You do not want to take so much as to pinch the bearings. When you are happy reinstall correctly and torque to 150 lb. at least. That's figuring you have 34mm/ 1 5/16 nut and disc, If not what Alex said would help.

Steve

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 01:34AM
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GB

At 60lbft I'm guessing you have drum brakes and roller bearings.

The drive flange wears along its length where it goes through the bearings - if yours slides in and out easily rather than being hammered in and rip the inner bearing out on removal, then it is probably worn.  It is also possible that the hub has relaxed a little over time - we changed both drive flanges on the Mini Mag Inno and while it was a lot better, there is still a tiny amount of play that will only be removed with new hubs.

 Posted: Feb 27, 2012 12:30AM
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I had some play in my right front hub, so I initially tried tightening the axle nut to make sure it was at least at the 60 ft. lb torque - which it was.  I tightened it to 80 ft lb and it still had play.  The bearings/ races are 1 year old. and the cv joint is 2 years old and has no wear marks on the bearing contacting surface.  I removed bearings and spacer and inspected, cleaned and re packed with grease. Bearings and races still look brand new.  I inspected the drive flange and it is good with no lip or ridges worn in the bearing contacting surface.  I reassembled and torqued to 60 and then 80 and then 90 ft lb, and the play remained.

Just to see if the bearings were not tight against the drive flange and cv joint, I disassembled everything and added some round (washer style) steel spacers between the drive flange and bearing surface and between the cv joint and inside bearing.  This moved the hub and drive flange outward and the axle nut became tight with fewer threads showing on the axle as would be expected.  Again, I torqued up, exceeding specs, but the side to side and up/ down play remains.  

I just ordered a new drive flange because I can't think of anything else it could be, but still not convinced.  What could cause play when the bearings are being held tightly in their races by the drive flange and cv joint and the axle nut is torqued tightly? 

 

"I drive a Mini. What are you compensating for?"

 

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